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+--- Thread: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE (/thread-11616.html)
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-16-2014
![[Image: 635512432148988625-Still1110-00001.jpg]](http://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/30d8900bf16d035795a95d43e4d4200f256d0313/c=60-0-1492-1077&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/WKYC/WKYC/2014/11/10/635512432148988625-Still1110-00001.jpg)
For Follmer ^ to insist that Hawkins wearing a shirt that says "Justice for Tamir Rice and Johnny Crawford" is disrespectful to "everyone", an attack on all police, and something for which Hawkins owes Cleveland PD an apology, exemplifies a part of the problem that Follmer can't or won't see IMO. Very dictatorial policing. Plus, that's not what Hawkins said.
There's not a damned thing wrong with hoping for justice, for anyone and everyone, and expressing that hope. Hawkins' shirt didn't say, "fuck you Cleveland PD motherfuckers!", FFS.
And, there's no law preventing people from supporting LE in general, teaching their kids respect for authority, AND sometimes questioning/protesting the actions of police officers involved in specific incidents. If there were, I'd be in big effin' trouble.
For Follmer to very publicly assume an "us vs. them" position, commanding citizens in his community (high profile or not) to just STFU, is a problem for him and his department. I wonder how the chiefs feel about what's he's saying publicly. Were I his superior, I'd tell him to shut his piehole. But, maybe they support him?
Anyway, I think Follmer's spewings reinforce the negative image of the Cleveland PD and could lead the public to believe that those in the department, like Follmer, decided that this was a justified shooting by default, and without the need for full investigation. I hope the investigation is unbiased.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Maggot - 12-16-2014
I wonder what the Police unions have to say about all this.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-16-2014
Follmer is the President of the Cleveland PD Union, Maggot.
I just did a little research because it seems outrageous to me that he could be so brazen in his public statements; statements which contradict the image that I'd figure Cleveland PD would likely be looking to project after the huge PR problems they've been facing for major fuck ups over the last couple of years.
Turns out, Follmer's presidency is terminated at the end of this year. Maybe he just doesn't give a shit about politics or community relations anymore? I wonder if the officers he represents and for whom he's supposed to be speaking agree with his sentiments as of late.
http://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2014/12/15/jeff-follmer-is-pathetic
I don't know what other police unions think about the Rice case, but it's an interesting question.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Maggot - 12-16-2014
OOPs I didn't know he was from the union. It just seems the unions are always there for the money but shy away from saying the right things because maybe they're afraid of losing members. They should be trying to quell this thing and at least try to make the police look better not stir crap up like Al Sharpton.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-18-2014
Andrew Hawkins from The Browns defends his decision to wear the "justice" t-shirt.
He made this public statement after Cleveland PD Union President Jeffrey Follmer labeled him "pathetic" and "disrespectful of all" and demanded an apology.
Very intelligent and heartfelt sentiments. Well said.
Hawkins ain't apologizing, nor should he.
(So, kiss off Follmer, you blithering bald-headed blowhard!)
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 12-24-2014
I hadn't seen this expert analysis (by Timothy Dimoff) of the shooting. He agrees with those of you who believe that the shooting was unquestionably justified.
He's assuming that Loehmann told Tamir to put his hands up three times (his analysis was performed before the discrepancies in the original police narrative were revealed, but I don't know if he'd have factored that into his commentary or analysis had he known anyway).
I couldn't find the analysis video on youtube; the video is at this link:
http://www.wkyc.com/story/news/local/cleveland/2014/11/26/tim-dimoff/19531071/
One thing all the experts agree upon: it was a mistake for the officers to have approached so closely. I don't know whether a grand jury will consider that heavily when making the determination whether to indict or if they'll instead focus only on whether Loehmann was reasonable in assuming he faced a life threat once he was already in that position.
If the grand jury determines the shooting was justified and does not indict, it will be up to Cleveland PD to determine whether Loehmann (and/or Gormback) violated their departmental use of force policies/training and should be disciplined internally or terminated.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 01-05-2015
INVESTIGATION TRANSFERRED TO OUTSIDE AGENCY
A completely unassociated review body would be better, but this is positive news anyway, IMO.
Snip:
"This decision to turn the investigation over (to the Cuyahoga County Sheriff's Department) was made to ensure that transparency and an extra layer of separation and impartiality were established," Mayor Frank G. Jackson said in a statement. "I believe that the best way to ensure accountability in a use of force investigation is to have it completed by an outside agency."
Attorneys for the Rice family said in response that they hope the investigation will shed light on why Tamir was shot "less than two seconds after the officers converged."
"We are cautiously optimistic about the announcement made earlier today regarding the City of Cleveland's promise of transparency and impartiality in the transfer of the investigation into the shooting death of Tamir Rice," attorneys Benjamin L. Crump, Walter T. Madison and Daryl D. Parks said in a statement.
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/cleveland-transfers-tamir-rice-investigation-county-sheriff-n278861
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - SIXFOOTERsez - 01-05-2015
These people are completely blind when it comes to one of them getting killed by the police. I don't think there is any amount of evidence that they would accept as proper cause, no matter what the dead idiot did. Watching that video its pretty clear that the kid for whatever fucked up reason was at a minimum brandishing to the police, how stupid is that?
Do they not teach their kids anything at all about consequences for their actions? How about some parental responsibility to teach their kids to NOT be threatening the police?
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 01-05-2015
I'm one of "these people", Six. I'm not black, but I am blind according to your perception, none-the-less.
Tamir was at a youth center park, steps away from his home, on the weekend; his older sister was nearby. That's not a sign of bad parenting. Tamir was playing with a plastic gun in an aggressive fashion; that was juvenile and possibly stupid -- nothing more or less. Tamir didn't run when police pulled up; that was right. If he was told to throw down his weapon instead of putting up his hands, he did the right thing by reaching for his waistband too. We don't know what, if anything, the cops instructed Tamir to do in the 1.5 to 2.0 seconds before they shot him to death.
We do know for a fact that the cops approached incorrectly, wrongly assumed that the male would run and left themselves no opportunity to assess the situation, were unable to maneuver their vehicle as they'd intended, shot what they believed was an armed male within 2 seconds (despite the area being open-carry and there being no bystanders at risk), and then lied about the male's actions and the scene before video surveillance contradicted their false narrative.
So, I'd like to understand specifically what you think Tamir's family, his community, and people like me are missing when we choose not to blindly accept the cops' latest version and instead push for an objective investigation using our first amendment rights.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - SIXFOOTERsez - 01-06-2015
Couple things there:
When the cops rolled in there the kid approached them immediately, closing the distance and removing the opportunity at least for the passenger cop to have something substantial between himself and some guy reported to have a gun. That much can be easily seen in the video. There is no accompanying audio, so who know what was said and how many times in the 2 seconds that the cop was forced to make a life and death decision.
In hind sight, there are probably dozens of things that could with the benefit of unlimited time to ponder upon could be said to have been done better.
I have not read everything that the police included in their report, so I can't say anything about that.
I can make a good guess at what the parents did not teach their kid, that you do what the police tell you to do, that you do not under any circumstances act aggressively towards the police especially when and if they roll up on you like that.
Its sad that a 12 year old kid got killed, truly it is. But I do not see where this is or should be a Black and White thing, I don't see this as a Bad Cops killing innocent kids thing. What I do see is an environment that has been created by the media and criminal assholes that have put the police in an untenable situation. They have to roll up on every situation like it is going to be life and death, which turns out all too often to be true. The police I think Should be measured by a slightly longer yardstick than everyone else, but I do not see how Anyone can be expected to make those kinds of decisions in the time they have to be made and getting it correct 100% of the time. I just do not think that is humanly possible or even a reasonable expectation. Police are people and they will make mistakes and because of that unfortunately people are going to get killed.
The more assholes out there the more the police will have to deal with very bad situations and the more likely they will make a mistake in a situation like this one where they were is no Actual danger will occur.
All that said, there are racist cops out there, there are bad cops out there. We the people need to be vigilant about that and hold the public officials liable for that.
We the people also need to take responsibility for our offspring and teach them right from wrong.
I don't think the cops are completely blameless in this, there are several things they could have done better. But they are not murderers either.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 01-06-2015
That makes more sense than post 188. Thanks for responding, Six.
Few things...
The cops chose the distance; they were still rolling when Tamir started walking towards them. They're the trained professionals, not the 12-year-old.
Initially, like you, the officers blamed their tactical error (approaching so closely) and aggression on Tamir. They claimed he was with a group of people, picked up a gun from the table, and put the gun in his waistband when they approached him -- a scenario which implied the officers needed to immediately neutralize a clear and present threat to themselves and possibly others. That scenario was a lie, since retracted. The officers now acknowledge they shouldn't have approached so closely and blame the slippery grass.
In neither of the officers' versions was Tamir "brandishing" when they approached him. Your version of what went down, in post 188, is the only time I've seen that claimed. It's false. Tamir had the toy gun in his waistband when the cops arrived on the scene and it was still there when he was shot. He never picked it up and never pulled it out, so it couldn't have been brandished.
Tamir's mom asked for the surveillance video to be released to the public, she wasn't trying to hide her son's actions. She has asked for a transparent unbiased investigation and the truth. She deserves that, whether your guess that she's a bad parent has any merit or not. I'm glad the mayor and many others agreed that the Cleveland PD isn't the right organization to be investigating itself in this highly contested shooting death.
So far, I haven't heard Samaria Rice condemn cops or make it a race issue -- she's questioning the officers' tactics and competency. She wants to know why her son was shot so quickly; why the cops didn't afford themselves time and distance to assess the situation. Very valid question which so far points to police error.
That police error doesn't ensure that investigators or a grand jury will find the shooting unjustified though. It could turn out that the investigation finds the officers performed miserably and violated procedures, but that it's reasonable to believe Officer Loehmann feared for his life when he pulled the trigger. That would mean a non-criminal justified shooting, but possibly a strong wrongful death claim in civil court.
In any case, I've seen no one involved in the case or commenting here suggest that this was a murder (aside from smart-ass Cutz, in jest). Negligent homicide -- maybe. Murder -- huge unsubstantiated stretch.
It's a sad and interesting case, regardless of the races of those involved, I agree with you there. But, I disagree with your assertion that "these people" are unreasonable in pushing for independent review and evidence in this case. The county sheriff's office has taken over the investigation and will have its findings ready by end of February. I'm anxious to hear them.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Duchess - 01-06-2015
I'd like to see them delve a little further into why the shooter was even a cop given the background I know. I won't hold my breath waiting though.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - SIXFOOTERsez - 01-06-2015
I don't think its unreasonable at all to ask for an independent review, it should probably be done in All killings.
As far as the brandishing, that was my word, Its what it looked like to me, looked like he raised his shirt as he approached the police car, He had what could only have been interpreted as a weapon given the info that they had, based on what I have read at least.
Mrs Rice wants a Conviction, that was her word for "Justice" Both cops to be convicted.
The video that was posted was obviously very heavily edited and just as obviously slanted to her side of things. Her interview and story, guess theres nothing wrong with that.
She may not be using the race issue, but there are a hell of a lot of people that are.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 01-06-2015
(01-06-2015, 02:52 PM)SIXFOOTERsez Wrote: I don't think its unreasonable at all to ask for an independent review, it should probably be done in All killings.
As far as the brandishing, that was my word, Its what it looked like to me, looked like he raised his shirt as he approached the police car, He had what could only have been interpreted as a weapon given the info that they had, based on what I have read at least.
Mrs Rice wants a Conviction, that was her word for "Justice" Both cops to be convicted.
The video that was posted was obviously very heavily edited and just as obviously slanted to her side of things. Her interview and story, guess theres nothing wrong with that.
She may not be using the race issue, but there are a hell of a lot of people that are.
Tamir shouldn't have motioned for his waistband unless he was told to drop the gun. That motion doesn't qualify as "brandishing", but it was a motion that resulted in the boy being shot. Tamir clearly wasn't trying to elude the cops and had very little time to process whatever was screamed at him, if anything, through a rolling vehicle. I could see him panicking or wanting to show them the gun wasn't real. We can only speculate what he was thinking in those couple of seconds.
Anyway, I acknowledge that the officers couldn't have known the gun wasn't real while they were rolling and had to react immediately when Tamir made that motion towards his waistband. It's just terribly unfortunate that the officers left so very little time and distance to properly assess and address the situation. That aggressive approach wasn't necessary in this case and Tamir didn't cause the officers to make those tactical errors.
I do recall Samaria Rice stating that she wants to see the officers convicted. She believes strongly that they used excessive force which caused the wrongful death of her child and that an unbiased objective investigation will officially support that conclusion. She and her attorneys also believe that the officers should be charged without a secret grand jury process because there already exists enough established probable cause to support charges. I don't think that's gonna happen, personally. We'll see.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Duchess - 01-06-2015
I don't think I would have been able to comply to anything with only 2 seconds to do so after having a police car pull up on me like that.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 01-08-2015
(12-12-2014, 03:10 PM)username Wrote:(12-10-2014, 12:25 PM)HairOfTheDog Wrote: I hope there is video to support the family's claim of what went down after the shooting. If it went down as they claim, it was a huge unwarranted slap in the face.
I'm quite certain there is. That surveillance tape that was running from across the street wouldn't have just stopped suddenly. We've only seen a portion of what they have and I'd like to see the whole damn thing. Besides tackling the daughter and threatening the mother, I want to see what both cops were so damn busy doing they couldn't be bothered to render first aid to that kid. Fuckers.
Ohio Media Group pushed for release of the full video. They just succeeded in getting 30 minutes of it. Samaria Rice's claim that her daughter was tackled and cuffed by police officers is supported.
At about the 1.40 minute mark, you see Tamir's 14-year-old sister approaching. She's first at the scene and the view is quite clear. Tamir is bleeding on the ground (out of view) between the police vehicle and the gazebo, unattended, as she runs towards him. She's tackled by Officer Garmback, restrained by other cops, handcuffed, and put in the back of the vehicle within 10 feet of her brother (who remains unattended).
The officers are standing around talking.
A few minutes later, the off-duty FBI agent arrives at the park and is the first to tend to Tamir -- he performs CPR til the paramedics arrive about 8 minutes after the shooting (much of that is blocked from view by the police vehicle).
More: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/video-police-restrained-tamir-rices-sister-after-shooting/
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - username - 01-08-2015
Fuck! I'll have to view the video later but I questioned earlier what the police were doing until the FBI agent arrived. Now I know. THAT is criminal to me. Not tackling the sister but failing to render any aid. Assholes.
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 01-13-2015
(01-08-2015, 03:57 PM)username Wrote: Fuck! I'll have to view the video later but I questioned earlier what the police were doing until the FBI agent arrived. Now I know. THAT is criminal to me. Not tackling the sister but failing to render any aid. Assholes.
I understand police needing to restrain Tamir's sister as well.
What I don't understand is why they kept her sitting in that police car by herself, looking at her dying brother, after other vehicles had arrived on the scene and there was plenty of opportunity to move her and plenty of officers on the scene to console her. Instead, they treated her like a criminal and ignored her while officers just stood around.
Raging asshole Steve Loomis, the Cleveland PD union boss, answered that question by saying that officers had no way of knowing she was Tamir's sister. Uh huh, there's just no way trained police officers could have known to ask her if she knew the shooting victim.
Many commenters feel that the new video footage released is yet more damning evidence of systemic failures like those cited in the U.S. Department of Justice and The Ohio Attorney General's Investigative Reports.
![[Image: 16746890-mmmain.jpg]](http://imgick.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width620/img/darcy/photo/16746890-mmmain.jpg)
(Michael McGrath is the Safety Director and Frank Jackson is the mayor of Cleveland, both continue to defend officers' handling of the situation)
Story: http://www.cleveland.com/darcy/index.ssf/2015/01/extended_tamir_rice_video_show.html
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - HairOfTheDog - 05-04-2015
It's been five months since Tamir was shot to death in the park. The family held a press conference and justice rally today.
Five months and the criminal investigation is still not complete. Tamir has not been buried.
The family filed a civil suit against the city of Cleveland and the two Cleveland officers; the city has asked for the suit to be suspended until the criminal investigation is complete.
The family attorney is objecting to that request as nothing in the Constitution mandates that a civil suit can't be pursued during a criminal investigation. The objection also states that the Cuyahoga County Sheriff “has had no communication with the family of Tamir Rice concerning their investigation.”
Story: http://www.buzzfeed.com/nicolasmedinamora/tamir-rices-body-remains-unburied-as-criminal-investigation#.jrM2Vx7zV
RE: TAMIR RICE, 12 -- KILLED BY CLEVELAND POLICE - Duchess - 05-04-2015
That's bullshit. All of it, holding on to his body and dragging out the investigation. Five months. Jesus.